A Conversation with Kai Bird

American Scoundrel, Kai Bird and Susan Goldmark’s bracing new biography of Roy Cohn, has arrived to considerable critical noise and, as of this writing, is climbing the New York Times bestsellers list. On Mon, Sep 28, Bird and Goldmark join Richard Salomon to get into the man, the mythmaking, the research and the revelations behind the book. Ahead of the conversation, Bird generously gave us a preview. Consider this your dossier before the main event.

92NY: Your previous blockbuster, American Prometheus, told the story of Robert J. Oppenheimer, a man who gave the world an awesome and terrible power. The title American Scoundrel sounds like a dark mirror of that – a man who used power purely for destruction. Was that mirroring intentional? Are these two books in conversation with each other?

Kai Bird: Yes, I think subconsciously, these two books are mirroring each other. It didn’t start out that way, but I have always been motivated to explore the dark side of the human experience. In Oppenheimer, it was about an entirely admirable, idealistic scientist who wanted to do the right thing — and ended up creating a weapon of mass destruction. With Roy Cohn, it was all about an individual with deep-seated resentments who was determined to flout all the rules. Both Cohn and Oppenheimer changed the world — and that is a powerful biographical narrative.

92NY: The book is co-authored with your wife and longtime research partner Susan Goldmark, who will join the event on September 28. How did writing this together shape the book?

KB:  I was both ambivalent and delighted that my wife of many decades decided to dive into the research on Roy Cohn. I was delighted because I knew she was smart and relentless. I was ambivalent because I knew that co-authorship has a rocky history. But it turned out to be terrific. She greatly hastened the research process and made it possible for me to write a first draft of the manuscript in about 18 months. That is a record for this biographer. Of course, it took a total of four years from the proposal to bring out the published book.

92NY: Why do you think Donald Trump and Roy Cohn were attracted to each other?

KB: Donald Trump was 27 years old when he met the 46-year-old Roy Cohn. Trump was tall, blond, blue-eyed and the very malleable son of a rich man. He literally was Cohn’s “type.” Not that there was a sexual relationship, but the closeted gay man was attracted to this kind of young man. But I think they saw in each other their narcissistic, self-absorbed, ambitious souls. Cohn saw in Trump someone whom he could mold into a transactional power-fixer in New York City. Trump saw that Cohn could pave the way for his real estate deals with tax abatements and zoning variances. But they also enjoyed each other’s company. Cohn could be very charming and full of gossip and connections — the kind of connections Trump relished.

92NY: Reviewers have called this book essential reading for understanding Donald Trump’s America and have noted a direct line from McCarthyism to Trumpism running through Roy Cohn. What’s the single most important thing Cohn taught Trump?

KB: Cohn taught Trump that he could get away with breaking society’s rules. He enabled Trump’s resentments against the New York City establishment. He taught him how to deal with the press, the courts and the city’s elites.

92NY: What are you looking forward to digging into at your event for the book at 92NY on September 28? Are there any parts of Roy Cohn’s story that you and Susan still disagree about, or argued about while writing the book?

KB: Susan and I had few disagreements about the Roy Cohn narrative. Susan thought there should be more in the book about Roy’s sexual life — and I sometimes thought the narrative had too much sex.

92NY: American Scoundrel documents crimes that would shock a thriller writer — Mafia connections, blackmail, sex trafficking, election tampering. How did Roy Cohn avoid prison for so long?

KB: He was shameless, but also smart and devious and he knew how to play the judicial system, delay, delay, delay, and fight the legal battles in the court of public opinion.

92NY: You’ve written many books that explore how power works in America — through biographies of the great and the good — establishment figures like Jimmy Carter, Robert Ames, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Bundy brothers. What was it like to turn your attention to this out-and-out villain? And did writing this book change how you see all those earlier subjects?

KB: I was initially worried, but writing about a villain turned out to be fun. But Cohn’s story turns out to be a story about the death of the old American Establishment that I had written about for four decades. That realization was somewhat disheartening. The values of bipartisanship, respect for science and intellectual endeavors has been replaced by Roy Cohn’s scorn for all that.

92NY: Did you interview Trump for this book? And how did you get to interview him?

KB: I had four phone interviews with Trump — all cold calls directly to his personal cell phone. That was weird. It turns out that he has not the memory for good anecdotes, but he still possesses strong opinions. He still deeply admires Roy Cohn, and misses him. I got the sense that Roy was one of his only true friends.

92NY: President Trump famously said, “Where’s my Roy Cohn?” during his first presidency. After writing this book, what exactly do you think he was asking for at that moment?

KB: Trump wishes he had Roy Cohn buy his side even today. He misses his ruthlessness.

92NY: Cohn cultivated connections across every world that mattered in New York — the Mafia, the gossip columns, the judges, the media owners. Was there a single philosophy behind all of it? How did he think about power?

KB: Roy had the values of a mafia don. He values loyalty above all else. He thought of life as a game, a transactional game. He had no deep-seated ideology, just resentments.

92NY: Did you find anyone who was willing to say good things about Roy Cohn?

KB: Oh yes, the book is filled with quotes from people who admired Roy Cohn. Barbara Walters, Bill Safire — and we tell the story of Roy’s teenage cousin who was rescued by Roy from a sanatorium where he had been sent by his parents. This cousin always said that Roy had saved his life. So there are some stories in the book that explore the humanity of this rogue character.

92NY: Do you think the president is going to read the book?

KB: I would like to think so. Trump told me in his last phone interview that he could “promote” the book to being number one on the best-seller list “if it was fair.” Well, there are over 1300 footnotes. The book is very scholarly in that way. But I doubt Trump will read it. He isn’t a reader. But I would really like some MAGA readers. I would like to talk about the book on Fox News — but so far, they are ignoring this biography of the president’s good friend and mentor. I don’t know how they can do that.